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Winkey Problems
AJ4F
#1 Posted : Sunday, November 4, 2012 7:55:17 PM(UTC)
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All,

I am attempting to use the Winkey in my RigExpert Plus interface with Logic 9. I use the rigexpert supplied software to set up the vitrual serial ports. This set up works well with N1MM contest logger, WinWarbler and the Winkey Demo program. However, when I startup Logic 9 the Winkey goes to the keyed state and stays there. I can close the Winkeyer window in Logic and nothing changes. I do not believe this issue is RFI related because it occurs even when my rig (ICOM IC 7000)is not set up to transmit (not in the BRK or FBRK modes). I have selected the same virtual port (COM 7)in Logic 9 as the I have selected in the other software with which the Winkeyer functions properly.

I am using Logic 9 latest version and Windows XP SP 3.

Any trouble shooting suggestions would be appreciated,

Robie -AJ4F
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N5XZ
#2 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2012 5:35:53 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AJ4F Go to Quoted Post
All,

I am attempting to use the Winkey in my RigExpert Plus interface with Logic 9. I use the rigexpert supplied software to set up the vitrual serial ports. This set up works well with N1MM contest logger, WinWarbler and the Winkey Demo program. However, when I startup Logic 9 the Winkey goes to the keyed state and stays there. I can close the Winkeyer window in Logic and nothing changes. I do not believe this issue is RFI related because it occurs even when my rig (ICOM IC 7000)is not set up to transmit (not in the BRK or FBRK modes). I have selected the same virtual port (COM 7)in Logic 9 as the I have selected in the other software with which the Winkeyer functions properly.

I am using Logic 9 latest version and Windows XP SP 3.

Any trouble shooting suggestions would be appreciated,

Robie -AJ4F

Hi Robie,

I also use a RigExpert Plus and LOGic 9 and WinKey. I have not had the problem you are reporting (although I have had other wierd issues). I have noticed that the setup does work better with N1MM than with LOGic, for some reason (keying weight ratio is cleaner and for some reason in LOGic, I have to adjust the weight constantly, not with N1MM). Also, still having an issue with CW messages skipping characters while sending in LOGic. Nothing resolved there yet.

Good luck!

(BTW, thanks for the SS QSO!)
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#3 Posted : Monday, November 5, 2012 7:39:27 PM(UTC)
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Ok, I have been scratching my head with on this one. I don't see how LOGic could tell WinKey to hold the key down indefinately. There is a tune mode, but closing the WinKey window should close Winkey, and it should know to take it out of tune mode if that is what is happening. What if you close LOGic?

I checked the WinKey initialization code in LOGic and it resets Winkey with the 0x0a command.

Here is the only thing I can think of-- are you SURE that you are using a WinKey? It SOUNDS like you may have a simple electronic switch like this one: http://hosenose.com/stor...mp;PrimaryCatID=47& The RTS line that LOGic turns on to power WinKey would be the signal to put a regular dumb keyer in transmit mode. The way to test this would be to use LOGic's Keyer form, not WinKey.

Allen: Does N1MM use WinKey's echo feature? (What LOGic uses to hilite characters as they are sent). That is the only difference I can think of between LOGic & N1MM. Why that would upset the weighting I have no idea. From a programming standpoint, all I do is send it characters, and Winkey is responsible for forming those characters.

As we have illustrated from the intermittant skipping of characters, there are apparently issues with WinKey.
When you "adjust weighting", do you have to set LOGic to different numbers to get it to send properly, or does just moving the control up and back to where it was fix it? When the weight gets out of whack, does closing the Winkey window in LOGic then resetting WinKey by unplugging the serial line set it back to proper default weighting?

I can try disabling the echo feature.

Tnx & 73,

Dennis WN4AZY

AJ4F
#4 Posted : Tuesday, November 6, 2012 7:34:59 PM(UTC)
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Dennis,

A bit more trouble shooting and some more information. Yes, I have a WinKey. It is part of the RigExpert Plus. I shut down my computer and restarted everything from the power up condition and observed the same problem as described earlier. I closed the WinKey window and the rig stayed in the keyed state. I closed Logic 9 and the rig remained keyed. I restarted the computer, the rig unkeyed and loaded properly. I started Logic 9 (the WinKey window closed) and everything was normal. I checked my serial ports and everything was normal. I decided to open the Keyer window (not WinKey window) and I got the following error:

Logic 9
Unhandled exception
Error no 2701
Message user thrown error
User value: exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation
Details
Procedure Init
Line No 0

Logic 9 shut down.

I restarted Logic 9 and did a Clean, restarted Logic 9 again. The program opened but with no Keyer window! I opened the Keyer window and received the error above. Restarted the computer and started Logic 9. This time I opened the WinKeyer window, and it worked properly!!!!

I believe I have a corrupted file or registry entry.

Suggestions,

Robie - AJ4F
WN4AZY
#5 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2012 9:29:29 AM(UTC)
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Well, glad you got it to work.

Quote:
I restarted Logic 9 and did a Clean, restarted Logic 9 again. The program opened but with no Keyer window! I opened the Keyer window and received the error above. Restarted the computer and started Logic 9. This time I opened the WinKeyer window, and it worked properly!!!!

I believe I have a corrupted file or registry entry.

Right, if the keyer window is closed when exiting LOGic, it will be closed on restart. No surprise there.

There are no registry entries in LOGic with respect to WinKeyer, and of course WinKeyer has none itself -- there are no drivers or anything. The setup for WinKey is stored in WinKeyer.INI. There are probably drivers for RigExpert of course.

So I don't have any suggestions other than to make sure you have the latest RigExpert drivers. As long as it is working, enjoy!

73,

DH
N5XZ
#6 Posted : Friday, November 9, 2012 11:01:48 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WN4AZY Go to Quoted Post
Well, glad you got it to work.

Quote:
I restarted Logic 9 and did a Clean, restarted Logic 9 again. The program opened but with no Keyer window! I opened the Keyer window and received the error above. Restarted the computer and started Logic 9. This time I opened the WinKeyer window, and it worked properly!!!!

I believe I have a corrupted file or registry entry.

Right, if the keyer window is closed when exiting LOGic, it will be closed on restart. No surprise there.

There are no registry entries in LOGic with respect to WinKeyer, and of course WinKeyer has none itself -- there are no drivers or anything. The setup for WinKey is stored in WinKeyer.INI. There are probably drivers for RigExpert of course.

So I don't have any suggestions other than to make sure you have the latest RigExpert drivers. As long as it is working, enjoy!

73,

DH

I think I will need to call you some evening or weekend to see if you are in and you can look at the setup. I have to admit, I never have any WinKey problems with N1MM, but somehow the "timing" and weight are almost impossible to get just right in LOGic. It's bound to be a very minor thing.
73, Allen N5XZ
AJ4F
#7 Posted : Saturday, November 10, 2012 2:06:19 PM(UTC)
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Dennis,

I failed to clearly communicate the situation. By opening and closing the Keyer window I got WinKey to work only once! My situation is as follows:

WinKeyer - when the window opens my rig is keyed, it remains keyed after I close the Winkeyr window, it also remains keyed after I shutdown Logic 9

Using Wkdemo I open the Winkey and clear it - the rig is now unkeyed!

Keyer - every time I try to open this window I get the error I described in my previous post!!


Using Logic 8 - both Keyer and Winkeyer works properly

Because the WinKey works properly with Logic 8, WKdemo, N1MM, Writelog,and WinWarbler I feel something is "wrong" with my Logic9 installation.

Can I uninstall and re-install it?


Robie - AJ4F
WN4AZY
#8 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2012 10:01:44 AM(UTC)
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You could uninstall and reinstall it -- just make a backup of your entire
program files (x86)\logic
folder so you can easily put things back the way they were if it doesn't help.

Quote:
Using Logic 8 - both Keyer and Winkeyer works properly

Is there a problem with the plain old Keyer in LOGic 9? Is the plain old keyer totally out of the picture when attempting to use WinKeyer -- unplugged and sitting on the shelf? Another explanation of what you are seeing would be that you have both WinKeyer and the simple keyer hooked up to your rig and to LOGic. LOGic 9 could use the same port for Winkeyer and plain old Keyer. Winkeyer uses RTS and the DTR line could be used by plain old Keyer. LOGic 8 would not allow port sharing. A long shot, but possible....

Maybe I should log in and take a look before you go to all the trouble of reinstalling. I have a feeling that I am missing something.

73,

DH
AJ4F
#9 Posted : Sunday, November 11, 2012 11:37:55 AM(UTC)
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Dennis,

I am using a Rigexpert Plus interface and the Rigexpert supplied software to create virtual serial ports for rig control (com5), WinKeyer (com7), PTT (com6) and FSK (Com8) for RTTY. My paddle is connected tothe RigExpert Plus.

In Logic8 I have the Keyer form set up for LPT1, nothing connected to the port, and the Winkey form set up for COM7. When I open the Keyer form it works properly (however the rig is not actually keyed). I close the Keyer form and open the Winkeyer form, it functions properly from my paddle, etc as well as CW messages from the WinKey form.

Based on this I say Logic8 works properly!!!



In Logic9, to the best of my knowledge, I have never attempted to setup the Keyer form. The WinKeyer form is setup for COM7 just as in Logic 8.

In Logic9 every time I open the Keyer form I get the following error:

Logic9

Unhandled structured exception

ErrorNO: 2071

Message: User thrown error

User Value: Exception has been thrown by the target of an invocation

Details:

Procedure: INT

Line No: 0

At this point I have two options, Help and OK. If I click on Help nothing happens. If I click on OK Logic9 shuts down. When I restart Logic9 I do not have to go through the Clean process.


In Logic9 when I open the WinKeyer window, it opens and my rig is keyed. The paddle does not work, nothing in the WinKeyer form responds. I can close the WinKeyer form and the rig remains keyed. I can shut down Logic9 and the rig remains keyed. I have to open the WinKey with WKDemo and reset it to unkey the rig.

I hope this is more clear!


Let me know if I can clarify further,


Robie - AJ4F
N5XZ
#10 Posted : Tuesday, November 20, 2012 10:02:32 AM(UTC)
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Dennis,

Have you tried disableing echo to see if the CW memory issues are connected to that? I have no issues with N1MM. I do not know if they use echo but I doubt it.
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#11 Posted : Wednesday, November 21, 2012 9:03:30 AM(UTC)
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No, not yet. It will be an option in the next update -- hopefully it will be a simple thing to do. I can't get it to break here now BTW.
N5XZ
#12 Posted : Wednesday, November 21, 2012 10:13:36 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WN4AZY Go to Quoted Post
No, not yet. It will be an option in the next update -- hopefully it will be a simple thing to do. I can't get it to break here now BTW.

It is inconsistent here, not broken all the time.

I'm wondering...does LOGic send some initialization string to WinKey when first enabled, or at periodic intervals? If LOGic does send some initialization string to WinKey, what is in it? Does it send weight or spacing info? When weight and Farnsworth is set to "0" what is sent to WinKey?

What I'm trying to determine is why keying sounds just a little bit different when using LOGic as opposed to N1MM. N1MM always seems to send perfect CW whereas LOGic seems "off" just a bit (like maybe dashes are too short by a few milliseconds.) I typically operate at 29 to 33 WPM.
73, Allen N5XZ
AJ4F
#13 Posted : Sunday, December 30, 2012 10:23:37 PM(UTC)
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All,

With the some time off work for the Holidays I have taken some time to troubleshoot the Logic 9/WinKey problem. As I have stated in previous forum posts my set up works well with other software including Logic 8, so I do not believe I have a true hardware problem. I have been testing various serial port settings and have found that I can get Logic 9 and WinKey to work reliably after I made the following changes to COM 7 (the port assigned to WinKey, I use XP sp3):

1. Change the USB Transfer size on both transmit and receive from the default value to 2048

2. Change the Latency Timer (msec) from the default value to 255

My set up has been operating several days now without any problems.

I hope this helps anyone else who might have problems.

Robie - AJ4F



N5XZ
#14 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 12:50:39 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: AJ4F Go to Quoted Post
All,

With the some time off work for the Holidays I have taken some time to troubleshoot the Logic 9/WinKey problem. As I have stated in previous forum posts my set up works well with other software including Logic 8, so I do not believe I have a true hardware problem. I have been testing various serial port settings and have found that I can get Logic 9 and WinKey to work reliably after I made the following changes to COM 7 (the port assigned to WinKey, I use XP sp3):

1. Change the USB Transfer size on both transmit and receive from the default value to 2048

2. Change the Latency Timer (msec) from the default value to 255

My set up has been operating several days now without any problems.

I hope this helps anyone else who might have problems.

Robie - AJ4F




I changed to these settings and so far the CW memory keyer is working fine. And the CW timing sounds better, too.
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#15 Posted : Monday, December 31, 2012 5:42:34 PM(UTC)
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Thanks Robie -- how did you ever figure that out? Great detective work. Thanks!

That doesn't explain why N1MM would work with the same settings tho. Are you using a FTDI or Prolific USB=>RS232 adapter? I wouldn't put anything past a Prolific driver.

Quote:
I'm wondering...does LOGic send some initialization string to WinKey when first enabled, or at periodic intervals? If LOGic does send some initialization string to WinKey, what is in it? Does it send weight or spacing info? When weight and Farnsworth is set to "0" what is sent to WinKey?


I guess this is immaterial now, but you got my curiosity up and I checked the code. So if anyone cares, here it is: Yes, it still sets weight and farnsworth even if set to 0 in LOGic. Sent when first enabled:

When initializing WinKeyer, LOGic opens, the port, powers up DTR, waits 300 ms, clears the receive buffer, then calibrates as described in the WinKeyer manual (It sends 0x0 twice, waits 100 ms, then sends 0xff).

Then LOGic sends 0x0 0x4 0x55 to test the serial interface. It should get a byte back. If not, LOGic says "Improper initialization echo response from WinKey"

Then LOGic sends 0x0 0x2 to open winker. It reads one byte which is the WInkey version number, and displays it.

LOGic sends 0x18 0x0 (force PTT off)

LOGic sends 0x0e to turn on serial echo.

LOGic sends 0x4 0x8 or 0x4 0x0 to reverse paddles or not.

LOGic sends Chr(5) + Chr(Thisform.minwpm) + Chr(Thisform.maxwpm - Thisform.minwpm) + Chr(255)) to set the pot range.

LOGic sends 0x7 to read the pot and set speed.

LOGic sends CHR(0x10) + CHR(.firstext)) set First Extension

LOGic sends CHR(0x11) + CHR(.keycomp)) set precompensation

Now it sets WPM, farnsworth, and weight:

Chr(02) + Chr(.spinWPM.Value ) && WPM

&& We set farnsworth to WPM, but using the percentage control
Chr(0xd) + Chr(.spinWPM.Value + (.spinWPM.Value * (.spinFarnsworth.Value / 100)))) && farnsworth

Chr(3) + Chr(50 - .spinWeight.Value) && weight

Are you sorry you asked? hihi.

Happy new year!
AJ4F
#19 Posted : Tuesday, January 1, 2013 10:44:25 AM(UTC)
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Dennis,

Several comments:

1. The RigExpert Plus contains a USB Hub (ATMEL AT43301 and 2 FTDI FT2232C UARTs (plus numerous other devices). The software supplied by RigExpert sets up several virtual ports for the devices in the RigExpert Plus (for example rig interface, sound card in/out, WinKeyer,etc.) I assume this software uses FTDI drivers.

2. The RigExpert Plus is powered directly from a single USB port on my computer. In this situation do you really have to turn DTR to power the WinKeyer?

3. From a trouble shooting perspective - WinKeyer specifies a 1200 Baud, in today's world rather slow. I guessed that Logic 9 (changes since Logic 8 - port usage feature, others???) may be shoving too much data too fast!. I had read somewhere that some USB devices do not perform well at low data rates so, I started adjusting the port settings. My fist adjustment changed the way the system operated and I knew I was on to something! I proceeded to find settings which optimized how well the system functioned. I am sure other settings will work. These settings do not appear to compromise performance of the other software I use so I will retain them.

Please let me know if you would like any other information,

73,

Robie - AJ4F
K1ESE
#16 Posted : Tuesday, January 1, 2013 6:56:43 PM(UTC)
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Dennis -

> LOGic sends 0x0e to turn on serial echo.

Any thought to also turning on paddle echo (I like to monitor my sending quality)?

Happy New Year!

73 de K1ESE
John
N5XZ
#18 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2013 12:30:13 AM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: WN4AZY Go to Quoted Post
Thanks Robie -- how did you ever figure that out? Great detective work. Thanks!

That doesn't explain why N1MM would work with the same settings tho. Are you using a FTDI or Prolific USB=>RS232 adapter? I wouldn't put anything past a Prolific driver.

Quote:
I'm wondering...does LOGic send some initialization string to WinKey when first enabled, or at periodic intervals? If LOGic does send some initialization string to WinKey, what is in it? Does it send weight or spacing info? When weight and Farnsworth is set to "0" what is sent to WinKey?


I guess this is immaterial now, but you got my curiosity up and I checked the code. So if anyone cares, here it is: Yes, it still sets weight and farnsworth even if set to 0 in LOGic. Sent when first enabled:

When initializing WinKeyer, LOGic opens, the port, powers up DTR, waits 300 ms, clears the receive buffer, then calibrates as described in the WinKeyer manual (It sends 0x0 twice, waits 100 ms, then sends 0xff).

Then LOGic sends 0x0 0x4 0x55 to test the serial interface. It should get a byte back. If not, LOGic says "Improper initialization echo response from WinKey"

Then LOGic sends 0x0 0x2 to open winker. It reads one byte which is the WInkey version number, and displays it.

LOGic sends 0x18 0x0 (force PTT off)

LOGic sends 0x0e to turn on serial echo.

LOGic sends 0x4 0x8 or 0x4 0x0 to reverse paddles or not.

LOGic sends Chr(5) + Chr(Thisform.minwpm) + Chr(Thisform.maxwpm - Thisform.minwpm) + Chr(255)) to set the pot range.

LOGic sends 0x7 to read the pot and set speed.

LOGic sends CHR(0x10) + CHR(.firstext)) set First Extension

LOGic sends CHR(0x11) + CHR(.keycomp)) set precompensation

Now it sets WPM, farnsworth, and weight:

Chr(02) + Chr(.spinWPM.Value ) && WPM

&& We set farnsworth to WPM, but using the percentage control
Chr(0xd) + Chr(.spinWPM.Value + (.spinWPM.Value * (.spinFarnsworth.Value / 100)))) && farnsworth

Chr(3) + Chr(50 - .spinWeight.Value) && weight

Are you sorry you asked? hihi.

Happy new year!


Wonder if we could compare this to what is sent by N1MM(?)
73, Allen N5XZ
WN4AZY
#20 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2013 9:50:25 AM(UTC)
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Quote:
Wonder if we could compare this to what is sent by N1MM(?)


That could be done using our loopback tester in binary mode I suppose. The difficult part would be responding to N1MM as WinKeyer would.

Anyway, I did some more playing around with it, and was again having problems with skipping characters. It wouldn't even send VVV WN4AZY properly. I would reset, and could easily reproduce it. Then it quit working altogether unless I opened the port twice by closing the WinKeyer form, then reselecting COM1.

So I increased the power-up delay from 300 ms to a full half-second, and it is SOLID now. Knock on wood.

I also improved the calibration routine. I was using GetTickCount to time the needed 100ms. It returns the time in milliseconds, which should be close enough. However, I did some research and found that the accuracy may be only 15 ms or so. So I switched to the hi-rez multimedia timer that we use to generate the timing in LOGic's keyer. So for those of you with golden ears complaining that it sounds slightly off -- it may be fixed now.

I also found that I was sending one of the commands twice -- shouldn't hurt anything, but I fixed it.

Look for an update late today.

BTW, my setup is a basic Winkeyer, built my K1EL himself, and an RS-232 port on my motherboard. As simple as it gets.

73 & Happy New Year!

DH
WN4AZY
#17 Posted : Wednesday, January 2, 2013 6:28:18 PM(UTC)
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Originally Posted by: K1ESE Go to Quoted Post
Dennis -

> LOGic sends 0x0e to turn on serial echo.

Any thought to also turning on paddle echo (I like to monitor my sending quality)?

Happy New Year!

73 de K1ESE
John


I can look into that. I checked the WinKey docs and it is supported. LOGic uses the echo to hilite characters that are already on the screen. Of course that is not possible if the characters are coming from the paddle, so it is easier said than done hihi. Maybe another window or something.
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